Episode 6 | September 1, 2025
Explore Reverend Dr. Brianna Parker’s journey of faith, resilience, and innovation in the Black church. In this Credible Witness conversation with Nikki Toyama-Szeto, she defines Black brilliance, celebrates Black joy, and shares how data, authenticity, and courage can help churches flourish. Parker’s vision offers hope and renewal for Christian communities today.
Ep. 6 | Lessons from the Black Church for the Whole Church
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“Black brilliance is like finding our way, when no one has made a way.”
How can Black brilliance and joy help the whole church reimagine faithful witness to the Gospel, and flourishing through courage, resilience, and data.
In this episode, Rev. Dr. Brianna Parker reflects on the meaning of Black brilliance and joy, rooted in the tenacity, creativity, and faith of Black communities. Rev. Bri is a researcher, preacher, and leader committed to catalyzing change in the Black church. From childhood experiences of being called to preach in a church that didn’t welcome women in ministry, to navigating toxic church environments early in her career, Brianna shares how her faith, resilience, and refusal to accept “no” shaped her calling.
She highlights the transformative power of data in ministry, the urgent need for joy in Black communities, and the role of the Black church in nurturing gifts, providing safety, and sustaining hope. Through stories of perseverance, authenticity, and innovation, Brianna paints a vision of the Black church as a place of flourishing and brilliance—an indispensable gift to Christianity and the world.
Rev. Dr. Brianna K. Parker (Rev. Bri) is a faith leader, scholar, and data activist. She is CEO of Black Millennial Café, LLC (BMC), a consulting practice and data resource center for Black churches, communities, and organizations. She served as the lead researcher for Barna Group’s State of the Black Church study and creator of the first-of-its-kind ministry development subscription program, BlackChurchLeader.com. Through the Black Millennial Café, Rev. Bri intentionally gathers data for understanding and transformation of Black communities. She lectures and presents empirical data on faith and Black communities concerns nationwide. BMC resources include commissioned data and a suite of services for churches and organizations interested in faith or social impact. She is the author of I Still Believe in the Black Church and a sought-after voice on the intersections of faith, culture, and community innovation.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto is Executive Director of Christians for Social Action and host of Credible Witness, a podcast amplifying faithful voices navigating complexity, courage, and hope.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Credible witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative.
Brianna Parker: My mom raised us in church. We grew up Baptist. I was a part of a very healthy church that really helped me to like grow and believe in myself, you know, in the black church you learn your gifts like in
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: church. If
Brianna Parker: I’m a orator, I’m gonna find that out in black church first. Ah-huh. If I’m a musician, I’m gonna find that out if I’m gonna be an actress. Like these things happen first in the black church, the first person who told me I could do anything in the world was Sister Dixon.
She said, Brianna, you can be Oprah, you can be an astronaut, you can be a president, Brianna, you can do anything. You know? And I was just like, she must be right.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So many of us struggle with a sense of calling. What are we truly called by God to be and do in this world? We can see that struggle throughout the pages of scripture.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Calling is often uncomfortable or dangerous. I’m thinking of Hebrew Bible stories like Jacobs wrestling with God to become Israel. Joseph’s dream turned, nightmare, turned, fulfilled, prophecy that meant the flourishing of his family and the world
calling often requires stepping out into the darkness of faith. Here, Jesus’s disciples offer more than enough examples, whether it’s Peter dropping his nets and stepping out of the boat, or the Apostle Paul’s dramatic conversion
but for Brianna Parker, that sense of calling existed from a very early age, and it came with confidence and radiant joy.
Brianna Parker: I would have these weird days where I would say, mom, I don’t think I should go to school. I wanna spend time with God. And she’d be like, okay.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: That calling was to preach the word of God to the church and she accepted it wholeheartedly.
Brianna Parker: and so one of those days, is when I started to get like visions and I knew I was called and I said, mom, I’m gonna tell you a secret.
Don’t tell anybody I’m called to ministry. I’m called to preach. And she said, okay. I won’t tell anybody. My mama told everybody,
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Brianna accepted that calling wholeheartedly. But what happens when the calling we so deeply feel and know and accept as inherent to our identity isn’t validated by our community?
Brianna Parker: Now here’s the tricky thing. What I did not realize because of how encouraging the church was. My pastor didn’t believe in women in ministry.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh, is that right?
Brianna Parker: I know.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So you were surrounded in this nurturing
space that was calling for these gifts from you.
Brianna Parker: And I was in the pulpit every month with my pastor. Were you for prayer?
Ah, so I didn’t know he didn’t believe in women in ministry
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: In Brianna’s community of origin? Women would not welcome in ministry. Preaching was a man’s calling.
Well, for Brianna hearing no from her pastor wasn’t going to prevent her from saying yes to God and receiving her calling.
Brianna Parker: my mother says every day is opposite day for Brianna.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: And what does she mean when she’s saying that I
Brianna Parker: care about anybody’s? No.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh,
Brianna Parker: ever. Oh no. Let’s see. So every day is opposite day for me, and it’s really a faith thing more than it is confidence, you know, like in myself. And so I was able to say yes to ministry. I think at 1515,
Brianna Parker: was called when I was 15
So I was always a person of faith. Great faith. you know, I’ve overcome a lot of obstacles. I’ve had a lot of challenges that I just kind of expect it to come my way.
And I said, you know, thank you For all that you’ve done. I wouldn’t be this person without you, by the way I’ve accepted my calling.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I’m Nikki Toyama-Szeto, and this is Credible Witness, A collection of stories and wisdom from faithful people, wrestling with and bearing witness to the credibility of Christian life today. Each episode is an invitation to listen generously and courageously to one person navigating social tension and moral complexity.
Negotiating doubts, struggles and fears, overcoming obstacles, and pursuing justice and living out the convictions of their faith. And every voice reminds us that the church is called to be a credible witness to Christ, a living reality of hope,
justice, truth and love.
Brianna Parker: Black brilliance is like finding our way, when no one has made a way.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: Black brilliance exposes things that everyone else has,ignored. black brilliance is seeing something
that is necessary
to expose to the wider world.
To benefit your community. Mm. It’s
not using your gifts in traditional
ways. But flipping everything on its head. To bring the world something new.
Black
brilliance
when we can see it and appreciate it at leads to black joy.
Brianna Parker: Black people need more joy. Always. Black joy is more than just being happy. Mm-hmm.
Black joy looks like someone who, I don’t know if you remember on social media, you saw these pictures of like black men, frolicking.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yes.
Brianna Parker: And it was
like, what are they
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: doing? Yes.
Brianna Parker: Black joy is when you can be a
200
something pound black man, maybe with locks in your hair and frolic,
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: because
Brianna Parker: because we don’t get
to frolic.
That’s right.
We have to work hard. We have to provide, we have to do all these things that the world says. Well, but we don’t always get to just revel in joy and do things that don’t look cool or normal or the standard. Yeah. And so I think those things are necessary in the black community.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: When I hear the way that Reverend Bree talks about black brilliance and the ingenuity and creativity and power of finding a way where no one has made a way, I’m reminded of the way that the black church has embodied this brilliance in the world.
From the history of Hush Harbors, these joyful church services hidden from the slave owners in the days of American chattel slavery.
As you can read in the pages of Tony Morrison’s beloved to the need for incorporated black churches in the segregated Jim Crow era. To the origins of the gospel, r and b and jazz arising from the tradition of black spirituals. This is how the black church has embodied brilliance.
That brilliance is a beacon of light for a lukewarm Christianity of compromise, an exemplar of courage and confidence and hope.
Now I’m so grateful for Reverend Brees sharing about her experiences in black church leadership. Really her stories that come from the heart of the Black church. I appreciated that she didn’t condition or caveat her story with any footnotes or filters because I recognized that her even just talking to us was an act of extraordinary vulnerability and risk.
She gives us a glimpse of what family business looked like and how it impacted her calling and her faith.
In this episode with Brianna Parker, we discuss
the core identity, values, and gifts of the black church. As well as the role Christianity plays in the broader black community and black culture,
the meaning of authenticity in the church,
how Brianna’s early sense of a spiritual calling to be a preacher met the realities of a church that didn’t have a place for women in ministry.
It’s a conversation that exemplifies, rethinking and reforming the church, exploring the depth and extent of the gospel, and ultimately finding confidence in one’s calling to brilliance and joy.
The Reverend Dr. Brianna k Parker is a researcher, a preacher, and a leader focused on catalyzing change in the black church.
She’s the author of, I Still Believe in the Black Church, working with ministries all over the United States. She helps churches understand the unique challenges that the black community faces,
Particularly through her work in founding the Black Millennial Cafe. BMCA consulting group using data science and a deep understanding of the spiritual and cultural nuances across generations in the black community. Brianna helps us understand the unique gift the black church can be,
Not just to the communities they serve, but to the entire church in all of its diversity and to the
world.
Brianna, thank you so much for coming in and talking with
Brianna Parker: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I wanted to start by asking Reverend Brie for a bit of context about the black church, its identity and its values. Her work and ministry helps black churches around the United States understanding the communities they are trying to serve.
She’s trying to bring contextual truths derived from data, along with spiritual cultural insights that can help churches more effectively reach people and offer the transformative power of the gospel. Brianna honed in on a value for authenticity, but cautioned about total transparency Authenticity matters. Hmm. And not so much like, you know, all the pastors wanna be in skinny jeans and like, you know, it’s not like relatability, it’s authenticity. So whatever’s authentic to you. If a three piece suit, if vans and khakis that are little baggy, you know, like whatever it is. But I think we like really misunderstand authenticity.
Brianna Parker: Interesting. Um, like when we did our initial research, one thing, um, that mattered most to black millennial millennials was they, we really wanted to see black churches like get back to the core. like who did we say we were going to be? You know, what did we set out to do? And you know, if you go back decades, like, what did we say we wanted to accomplish?
Who, how do we wanna treat people? You know, what does this look like? And so seeing the black church, you know, come to its most authentic self. Yeah. And I think sometimes people think authenticity is transparency.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Interesting. What’s tease out the difference? What’s the difference
there? Yeah.
Brianna Parker: So transparency I think misses millennials sometimes, you
know, because, interesting.
Yeah. Because sometimes you wanna be so transparent and you wanna be so like in the in crowd with young adults or millennials that you tell stories that could be a lot of things offensive that are just like outdated and antiquated. and, you know, you’re always the. The hero and hear little story, you know, we can see through those
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Uhhuh, Uhhuh,
Brianna Parker: transparency sometimes when, like, when, when a pastor’s yeah, you know, I used to sell drugs and you know, I was in a gang and it was 43 years ago. You know what I mean? Likethis kind of transparency. You’ve been riding off of this, you know what I mean, for decades. And you are a far from that today.
And so I think authenticity and transparency, those are a little different. I think we should be sometimes less transparent and more Authentic.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Hmm. Less transparent and more authentic.
Brianna Parker: Yeah. Some stuff we don’t need to see. what would that look
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: like to be. Less transparent and more
Brianna Parker: So less telling me all about your life on your social media and telling me, how you stay married and the fights you have, Uhhuh, like all those things.
’cause a lot of times they’re not true. and, you know, stop telling me this story and instead come to me. And your most. Pure self,
you telling me whatever truth it is you want me to know. And I remember when we did this study, it, it really got to me that black millennials didn’t need you to have all the answers, even in the pulpit.
And that was different for me. Mm-hmm. And I’m a church kid. Mm-hmm. From the south. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I, you better know this. Why are you up there? That’s not how black millennials felt. We can come to the conclusion together.
You know what I mean? We can
figure this out together.
You don’t have to come with all the answers, but I wanna know. You studied, I wanna know you tried. I wanna know you take this moment seriously. Mm-hmm. And I think authenticity says. When you go before your congregation, there are some topics that I have not preached on that you guys have talked about, and I’m just trying to find my own footing.
You know,I don’t wanna say anything that I, don’t think I can really stand behind and I wanna make sure whatever it is that I can find a biblical truth to it, or I think God is pleased. That’s authenticity. Mm-hmm.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: You know? Mm-hmm. More than
Brianna Parker: showing us all the behind the scenes of your life. Life. And it’s always pretty.
and if it’s not pretty, you’re telling us this beautiful story about why it’s not pretty.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: One of the more groundbreaking ways Reverend Bree is trying to rethink church is through data. That means going beyond the anecdotal evidence, the intuitions, the hunches, or the stale traditions or cultural trappings that don’t make an impact on real life.
What I see in her approach to collecting data is listening. She listens with a pastor’s heart, listening to people, understanding people, and allowing statistical data to inform a congregation’s service to its community in order to make it more relevant and responsive to a need
My specific space is more black church and community data. Because we couldn’t stick with millennials because there was such a data deficit in black communities and black churches. Is And so like if I wanted to know how many people were in prison, I can find that But if I wanted to know something that, churches and, and nonprofits could take to the bank and data As opposed to anecdotal evidence, it wasn’t there. Because black communities and churches have not had that. We’ve only had anecdotal evidence. Well we know this because we have so many people at our church who have had this issue or had this concern.
Brianna Parker: Lemme tell you what surprised us, in the last election cycle. ’cause, you know, black linear cafe works really hard during election cycles, whether that’s politician or, or a PAC or whatever it is. it was just disheartening. We found out that 75% of black church church courts believe we were politically powerless.
75.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: 75% of black churchgoers believe that the black church was powerless.
Brianna Parker: Mm-hmm. Politically powerless.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Wow. Uh,
Brianna Parker: black People who are in church every Sunday hearing about the power of God and the power that transcends.
Yes. That somehow doesn’t go beyond the steps of the church. So that we had to change strategy very quickly. but it was so disappointing, to believe this, but we changed our strategy and we made it work and we kinda had to go back to the PBS, like every vote
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: count,
You know, like,
Brianna Parker: we had to
because they didn’t believe we had power. And I just don’t know how believers
that’s
disheartening for believers
to believe we don’t have power. The other thing was, um, you know,
we have so much
hope in our future, but when we looked at young men mm-hmm.
Young black males and how they felt about women and leadership. Child, we are in bad
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: shape.
What’d you find?
Brianna Parker: They don’t believe in women and men
in
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: They’re not. And this is young black men. Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: These are young adults.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Wow.
Brianna Parker: Yeah. So what does that mean for our future? I I mean you have Kamala Harris, we, we watch, we women succeed and excel, but it’s not made young, black males happy or feel like more confident or feel like a partner to
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: for black women? Hmm.
Brianna Parker: and so I, I
can only
imagine how that’s gonna, play out in relationships and
partnerships
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: In a culture which prizes authenticity, truth and honest expression of our calling and identity, we have to remain clear-eyed and courageously receptive to. Statistics that we might wish weren’t true. These stats about self-perceptions of political powerlessness of the black church or young men’s perspectives on the leadership of women in ministry. They provide interesting and useful ways to start meaningful conversations that don’t just lead to change, but lead to improved community relationships.
Brianna helped to clarify how the African American community understands church as a pillar of black life and culture. Even if it sometimes doesn’t come along with belief or practice, there’s still a depth of belonging in the church at a cultural, religious level. In other words, it’s not the, I’m spiritual but not religious phenomenon. It’s the religious but not spiritual factor that is impacting the black church and the broader black community
Brianna Parker: We talk about black church and black community. Mm-hmm. You know, we’re in an entanglement. when black people
are in entanglement with church and community, it’s
actually where the magic is, right?
Yes. Because
you’re gonna be hard, you can find black people who have not grown up in church. You’ll not find black people who have not accepted or lived. black church culture.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Hmm,
Brianna Parker: Hmm.
If they’re in black
communities, uhhuh, they go together.
and the same. Ham
and cheese, peanut butter and jelly.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: You know how you don’t,
Brianna Parker: don’t, which is
why you have
moments. I remember we
were doing the study
and they would
call it the state of the church, but it was white people. And
so when they were doing it, they
found out that there were a couple categories, right.
They were spiritual and not religious. We’ve seen that
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: before. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.but
Brianna Parker: black people, had not seen religious and not spiritual.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Is that, ’cause that sort of makes no sense, no sense
but it
Brianna Parker: does because we’re in an entanglement. So even if you don’t believe in God, you still want your grandmother to be funeralized by the pastor at the
church. you still want a pastor to marry you. Yes. You still want your
children blessed. And if
you don’t want your children blessed, you
still go
as the village
and the godparents when your friend’s
children are blessed, Yeah. Like,so those
kind of
things, you know, we just,we really
can’t separate them.
And
think that is the magic. to know that even if you don’t believe
in God, I don’t have to explain to you an inside joke.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Hmm.
Brianna Parker: I don’t have to, share black church culture with you. Because you know it, you know
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: it, you know
Brianna Parker: Even if you’re not a believer.
Uhhuh I think that’s the magic. I think that’s also one of the reasons why you won’t see, black numbers
decline. Like in the same way. And belief, not just attendance. Okay.
Because Attendance might
decline. But belief
won’t the same. ’cause it’s, it’s such a part of our identity.
I see. Um, thatit would
take a lot for black people to just have like really low numbers walking away from Christianity. Now we have identity thing. We learned this in the statistic. black people have
a hard time identifying blanketly as Christian right now. Especially younger black people. Mm.
Because Like, so if I meet you
and
I’m like I’m a Christian. Mm-hmm. I don’t want
you to think
I’m the MAGA hat
wearing Christian.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: That’s the automatic assumption.
Brianna Parker: You know, we don’t know. Yeah. Or I don’t want you
to think I’m the kind of Christian who
wants to lock babies in cages. Hmm. You know what I mean? So how do I say to you, I’m Christian, but you know what
kind of Christian I am.
Mm-hmm.
And because we don’t know how to do that. Some people don’t
want to blanketly identify as Christian, even if they still have Christian beliefs, which is problematic.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: problematic. Is there, is there something that people are identifying, self-identifying as,
Brianna Parker: uh, spiritual or they wanna be
like more, we’re leaning more toward African religion or naturalists.
and I don’t, let me
be clear. Sometimes I don’t think they’re really participating in African spirituality.
They just wanna say, I’m black. And spiritual.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I see. You know, yeah.
Brianna Parker: More than they’re actually participating. And I think some people are exploring it seriously, but it’s just like, how do I set myself apart?
So, I’m different and, and I love people and you know, I’m not full of hate. And that’s becoming more and more difficult to do.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: At this point in the conversation, I wanted to bring it back to Reverend Bree’s own story of calling courage and conviction. Growing up in a faithful black church in Dallas, Texas. Brianna soon experienced the disconnect between her personal sense of calling and how church leadership and community reacted to that calling Brie, can you tell us a little bit about your story?
Brianna Parker: Yeah. I have a weird one.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: take us back to the beginning, broad strokes. What are a couple of things that
are sort of like the stopping points or the shaping
points for you?
Brianna Parker: so I had a really healthy, faith as a
child. Okay. My mother’s from Grenada, Mississippi. My father’s from Pineville, Louisiana. My dad’s family are a little rough. They were not in church like that, believers, but they weren’t church kids.
My mom raised us in church. She grew up a and e, but we grew up Baptist. I was a part of a really healthy church. Now here’s the tricky thing. I was a part of a very healthy church that really helped me to like grow and believe in myself.
And you know, in the black churchyou learn your gifts like in
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: church. In
If
Brianna Parker: I’m a orator, I’m gonna find that out in black church first. Ah-huh. If I’m a musician, I’m gonna find that out if I’m gonna be an actress. Like these things happen first in the black church, almost like a community center for other people.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: And why do you think that is?
Brianna Parker: so when we talk about segregation, there are a good number of black people who believe integration was not good for us.
We went into classrooms where people didn’t wanna teach us,
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: integration was costly to the community.
Brianna Parker: Absolutely. We lost something when they ended segregation. We lost a lot. We had teachers who were next door. You know what I mean? Who wanted to see my mom Marie win? Who My, my grandmother died when my mom was 14. Uhhuh, you know, like, I gotta take care of Marie, I gotta make sure she succeeds.
And then, you know, um, when segregation is dismantled, I mean, by law only. And you have to go and you’re taught by people who don’t even want you
there.
Mm. And then we know a lot more now
to understand that it is difficult you know, representation matters and what it means to rear somebody that you don’t understand.
So we feel like we lost a lot when segregation, ended. So if you’re in the black church, you get to continue that. I get to continue to teach you, I get to continue to speak into your life. I get to continue to encourage you. The first person who told me I could do anything in the world was Sister Dixon.
She said, Brianna, you can be Oprah, you can be an astronaut, you can be a president, Brianna, you can do anything. You
know? And I was just like, she
must be right.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: know?
Brianna Parker: know? So that’s kinda, where
that happened. So I had a really healthy,childhood in church. You know, I realized I was an intercessor.
I was probably 10 by the time I knew
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: 10
that mm-hmm. I,
Brianna Parker: I I found out in the Baptist church I had the gift of healing.
Wow. Um, ’cause I really believe if you lay hands on the sick, they shall recover. And I remember going through the church with my pastor and laying hands on people and they would come back and tell me they were healed.
Or I remember being in my mom’s Sunday school class for a second, Uhhuh, and I stayed in for prayer. And they said all their prayer requests and they were like, who wants to pray? And I was like, I’m gonna pray.
I
was probably like eight or nine. And so I pray, right, Nikki? So the next Sunday people were like.
This happened to me after, you know, my prayer request, this happened, this happened. Uh, Brianna, can you come pray again? And my mom’s like, no, she is not a genie.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: You know?
Brianna Parker: so I realized
I had the
gift of healing. I
realized I was an innocent. I realized so much. Well, what I did not realize because of how encouraging the church
was.
Mm-hmm.
My pastor didn’t believe in women in ministry.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh, is that right?
Brianna Parker: I know.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So you were surrounded in this nurturing space that was calling for these gifts from you.
Brianna Parker: And I was in the pulpit every month with my pastor. Were you for prayer?
Ah, so
I didn’t know he didn’t believe in women in ministry.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So what happened when you discovered that?
Brianna Parker: nothing. I wouldn’t talk to him about it.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Okay.
Brianna Parker: I had, I have a great mom and I got into a car accident. That’s why I have the scar on my forehead. A drunk driver hit me. I got a settlement, I have a good enough mom who did not spend my money.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: She kept it for college, you
Brianna Parker: know.
And so that was kind of how I lived in college because the, the settlements would come out once a year until I was like 21 and then, or 22 and then another when I was 25. So my first year getting the money, I tied to my home church. Okay. And I said, you know, thank you yes. For all that you’ve done. I wouldn’t be this person without you, by the way I’ve accepted my calling.
I thought he was gonna be happy. Mm-hmm. Well, I just never heard from him and I didn’t think anything of
it.
’cause I didn’t ask him to say anything back. Um, my children’s pastor said, he said he went into Stephanie and said, Brianna Parker accepted her calling. And I, in a negative way, I think they kind of expected it.
But I, I think I found out maybe two years later that he didn’t believe in women in ministry. And I never wanted to talk to him about it. ’cause I didn’t want him to hurt my feelings.
You know? I needed to see
him in a certain way because of all he had done for me. Yes. but
it didn’t
hinder me at all. I was like, well, that’s him.
Has nothing to do with me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. is a place that I am everything I am because of Antioch. So I just didn’t think anything of it. So that was the kind of childhood I grew up in. So I was always a person of faith. Great faith. Um, you know, I’ve overcome a lot of obstacles. I’ve had a lot of challenges that I just kind of expect it to come my way.
I, my mother says every day is opposite day for Brianna.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: And what does she mean when she’s saying that I
Brianna Parker: care about anybody’s? No.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh, ever. Oh no. Let’s see.
Brianna Parker: so
every day is opposite day for me, and it’s really a faith thing more than it is confidence, you
know, like in myself.
And
so
I was able
to.
Say yes to ministry. I think at 1515,
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I I
Brianna Parker: was called when I was 15.I, I would have these weird days where I would say, mom, I don’t think I should go to school. I wanna spend time with God. And she’d be like, okay. Wow. I know. And so one of those days, is when I started to get like visions and I knew I was called and I said, mom, I’m gonna tell you a secret.
Don’t tell anybody I’m called to ministry. I’m called to preach. And she said, okay. I won’t tell anybody. My mama told everybody,
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: she told everybody, I’m so upset with I just didn’t want the pressure. I didn’t want
Brianna Parker: anybody to tell me what they thought this looked like. So I went to college at 17 Arizona State, number one party school in the country.
We were rated the most beautiful campus and they weren’t talking about landscaping. Um, you know, so I go to this party
school and `knowing I’m called to preach and I just kind of lived my life like that. I had fun. I was at every party. I was also at church every Sunday. I was also
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: typical college experience. Plus, Plus, faithful regular church attendance.
Brianna Parker: Absolutely. Uhhuh.
And again, another healthy situation, And so I’m feeling good about life ministry or whatever. And so I, it’s time for me to graduate and they’re interviewing me ’cause I graduate, you know, really early.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: old were you when you graduated?
Brianna Parker: I was 19 so my sister was diagnosed, with end stage kidney failure
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh, wow.
Brianna Parker: In Dallas. So I decided I’m gonna go back home, be with my sister. Um, she had already been sick, but, you know, they were trying to figure it out. So my nephew lived with us. Um, my niece eventually, came to live with us and then I said, I’m gonna go and be with Lisa. she is end stage re renal failure.
So my family moves there, but I need a job. So I’m like, well, let see what I’m gonna do.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: beyond the resistance to a calling to preaching. It was Brianna’s employment as an assistant pastor at a large justice and community driven megachurch in Dallas, that created a moment of crisis, not just for her career, but for her faith.
Brianna Parker: And I’m like, let me go to the church down the street, you know, see what they have for employment opportunities where they were hiring.
I said, well, let me apply for this. And I applied and I think like November 17th, I believe I interviewed January 17th and I I started on February
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: 17th. Wow.
Brianna Parker: Um,
so I’m, I’m in this job that, and it’s a mega church. It doesn’t mean anything to me. I’m 25 working at a mega church.
I’m the youngest person, I’m the only person who walked in credentialed with, you know, my degree and stuff.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: uh, and if you can help us pull back a little bit on this church. Is this a black
church? Is it a multiethnic church?
Brianna Parker: church that’s known for their justice work.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: And, you
know, it’s, it’s gonna be like every other experience, healthy, nurturing, it’s gonna grow me. Oh. But it didn’t.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Wow.
Brianna Parker: were some of the worst Those were the absolute worst days of my life
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: working at this mega church.
what did you think that you were stepping into and then what turned out to be true?
Brianna Parker: I thought I was stepping into a place that was gonna nurture me and I was gonna grow, I was gonna become a better minister.
I was gonna understand pastoral care ’cause that was my concentration. I thought I would become a better preacher. I thought I would, develop these relationships with my colleagues, like I was sure. it’s gonna be all the things. And what was it? It was a very competitive place. It was the first time that I saw myself as anybody’s competition.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Wow.
Brianna Parker: It was the first time, if I’m honest, that I know this is crazy if you know my personality, but that’s the first time I realized people didn’t like me.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Hmm.
Yeah.
Brianna Parker: And I mean, with my mouth, you know, a lot of people probably didn’t like me,
but this
is the first time I, I thought like people like, would come together and not like me together, as a collective.
Oh, wow. Like they
would band together, Uhhuh. I, I never really knew. I mean, I had people who, just didn’t, weren’t in love with me, who may have been my teachers,
but adults could
always appreciate me and my drive and that was not a good thing there. I think my drive is what bothered them. you know, I had a certain confidence.
in ministry, ’cause I knew God called me to it. That didn’t seem to go over well. And a lot of it was because I had a supervisor who just didn’t like me.
Mm-hmm.
And because everybody else knew his wrath, they went along with him.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Hmm.
Brianna Parker: And then there was another lady who was in an exec at an executive level who did not like me. it was because she wanted to be like, the pastors like as far as women on staff, the one he loved most.
And so she
didn’t care much for me. And don’t forget, at first, I just think I’m crazy because nobody’s telling me what’s happening behind the scenes. And I remember one of my male coworkers, because I was the only woman on the pastoral staff, one of my male coworkers said to me, I wanna help you.
I wanna be here for you, but. This guy in the executive level, he doesn’t like you and I just don’t even want the, the drama, like of being a friend or ally to you.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: And was, that the first you had heard that
that was the dynamic that you were living out?
Brianna Parker: I felt it but you know, when you feel something, you think you’re crazy at first.
Like, you’re like, is it just me?
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Am
I imagining things?
Brianna Parker: Oh, absolutely. Or is it me? Am am I just not a great person? I didn’t know it. You know what I mean? Like, do I need totemper my work? Well, probably,
but do I, you know, there’s something about myactions or character that I need to change, and so I really didn’t know what that was like.
I, I, I, they didn’t like the way I dressed.
They would
talk about that, likesend messages. Like her skirt is too short. Well, Nicki, I was olive oil, so there’s no such thing as a too
short skirt because ain’t
nobody looking at me sugar.
I’m in Dallas, Texas,
full
of
body.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: You’re talking about olive oil, Popeyes, Popeyes, girl girlfriend
Brianna Parker: had
not a curve
insight. Thank you. Yes.
Nobody
cares about olive oil. You know?
And then I was talking to somebody on the business side and the creative team, and we were doing something and we were just really rocking and rolling. And I loved her being there. She was new, so she didn’t really know how everybody else felt about me. Mm-hmm. And we were doing great work together. And then she said, Brianna, I’m gonna have to stop working with you so much.
And I said, why? She said, because. The woman who’s on the executive team doesn’t like you. Oh, wow. And I’m gonna pay for it if I’m your friend. And I said, well, you don’t have to be my friend, I just wanna get work done. Like, I’m not out here looking for friends. Yes. And she was like, I can’t, it’s gonna, it’s gonna hurt me.
And I just got here and I don’t wanna, I was like, Hey, like, I just, it, I just couldn’t imagine it. Then I found out I was the lowest paid staff pastor. I’m the only one who walked in Degreed.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: You’re the only one who had an MDiv. Mm-hmm.
And you were the lowest paid?
Brianna Parker: Mm-hmm.
Yeah. 10 years.
Nothing changed in my salary.
Even when I said, Hey, do you know I’m the lowest paid staff pastor? It’s like, oh, we gotta fix that. I’m, I’m gonna do something about it. Never.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: And do you have any sense as to like, where these different, um,points of opposition were coming from?
Brianna Parker: Now, let me say this. Now I understand this is not that unique.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh, okay.
Brianna Parker: So like at a mega church, n maybe they like you, right? But if they don’t like you, the whole machine will stop to make sure you’re not successful. That’s not uncommon. Wow.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Right now you’re in your twenties, you’re living out leadership.
Mm-hmm. You sort of accepted a calling to preach. Mm-hmm. And you’re trying to sort of press into that.
Brianna Parker: Yeah. So there’s a certain amount of confidence I don’t think they maybe seen. And I just believe that God always had greater, not greater, greater, didn’t even have to mean away from the church uhhuh. I just didn’t think God was gonna keep me in anything for too long.
Uhhuh past, you know, this place of growth, And so that was an issue.
And I mean, I think there are a lot of things I didn’t understand. Like even in dress, I remember it was watch night, that is New Year’s
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm. So watch night
service, watch night service, something going late into the evening. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Brianna Parker: And um, watch night was coming and I asked my senior pastor, I was like, can I wear pants to watch night? Because, you know, watch night people were like, kind of like snazzy and had
a little razzle dazzle.
So I didn’t wanna dress in regular church clothes. I wanted to have something cute too.
So I said, can I wear pants? And he was like, yeah, why would you ask me that? I was like, ’cause we’re not allowed to wear, allowed to wear pants. He said, who told you that? And I said, you know, the executive male? He was like, that’s not true. So I didn’t say anything. I just started to wear pants.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: Every now and then, and I remember we got another woman on staff who was a senior woman, she’s gimme her sixties.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: And I said, well look, so and so, so and so. I say to the guy who told me I can’t wear pants. I said, well look, so and so, so and so is wearing pants and nobody seems to have a problem. He said, nobody wants to look at her legs. And I was just like, what? First of all, I see myself as skinny. I don’t think anybody wanna look at my legs either.
You know? So I don’t even see myself like that.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Were you surprised that you face that comment in the context of the church?
Brianna Parker: Yeah. I absolutely was. So I’ve been set up to be eye candy.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm,
Brianna Parker: Really?
So I’m basing my wardrobe, you know what I mean? Something I hate. And only to know that it was, I was eye candy. You old dirty man. Hmm. Like are you kidding me?
And you have
a daughter and you’re responsible for a full staff.
Hmm. At least
half of us are women. Mm-hmm. And you’re a predator. Mm-hmm.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: For Brianna, so confident and full of faith in her calling from God into leadership, this experience of such a competitive and toxic ministry environment produced an incredible amount of tension for what it means to do church and to be the church. A new appreciation for the realities and shortcomings that affect and infect the church.
But it was a productive tension in that it allowed her to see new pathways for rethinking and reforming church into something beautiful, brilliant, and joyful.
As the title of her book says she still does believe in the black church,
but what would that mean for her calling
How did that experience shape how you started rethinking church?
Brianna Parker: Oh, so, well, when I realized
the machine could go against you And you could literally fail or just not be as successful. I knew there should be something better than that,
but
it made me rethink church because
it
was nothing like I had known,
you know, I had always been in really healthy spaces. Yes. So I had to figure out if church was like this or if that church was like that,
And what did it
look like to create something better.
Okay. And what did it look like to have a place where people could flourish? Mm-hmm. That’s human
flourishing.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: You know what I mean? Like how can you open up the doors of a church?
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: For staff or parishioners? Flourishing is a problem. Like mm-hmm. What?
So what are you inviting me into?
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: You know what I mean? Like human suffering, what that’s gonna come anyway.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: You know what I mean? Like,
Brianna Parker: it, it was just crazy. So,
you know, what does it mean to have a place where people can flourish? Where people don’t have to hide their gifts? Where people can be their, youknow, like full selves and, and
all their glory or lack thereof,
whichever one, and it’s
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: I also started to rethink church for myself. And if, if I needed to be a part of church Um, if that was necessary for me. So I decided, I was not gonna give up on church, but I didn’t need to work for one.
’cause that experience was so bad for me that I didn’t wanna bleed on people and I didn’t wanna bring unhealthy, attitudes, behaviors, and feelings into healthy spaces.
And so I had to really decide what it looked like for me to still engage, in church. And so I have a book ton, tons of merch, and it is, I still believe in the black
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: And it, it
comes from a couple of places. One, the data told me I had every reason to still believe in a black church when we did state of the black church study. Two, I was working with churches who really wanted to do better Who wanted to be better, who wanted to produce better mm-hmm. In people. So I had the reason, and then I had to say it too,
Because I just
wasn’t gonna walk away from it. Mm-hmm. It was my own proclamation. Like, I, I still believe that this iswhere I belong.
I still believe that this is good for me, this is healthy for me, that this place can love me. And I really needed that. Mm-hmm. Because I mean, don’t forget Nikki, I’m in church when I find out. People can collectively turn against
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: Now, I wasn’t naive, you know what I mean?
Did I know people could? Sure. But
I thought
that what happen when I was working for the county attorney’s office
So I don’t know that
you can ever come back from that. I don’t know that you can ever forget that or unsee it or unfeel it. Mm-hmm.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: it. Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: So
now I have to walk knowing the truth is every church space is not healthy.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Well, I love that. Part of what you do is you walk alongside churches now. Mm-hmm. Right? And that there’s sort of this way that. There’s this touch point that you have, but also I, I appreciate the title I, I hear in that both a hope and a
promise Oh yeah. As well as
like a conclusion statement. It’s kind of like, I believe in the black church and I’m like
believing in the black church.
Right. Like Yeah. Yeah.
Brianna Parker: I always say,
you know, in most situations if you’re gonna make a statement. Like connect to belief, you’re either gonna prophesy or testify.
Either you’re saying I wanna believe in it. Or after all I’ve been through, I can still believe in it. so I was probably doing both at that time. Yeah. You
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Unpack for me, what is it that you believe about the black church?
Brianna Parker: Oh, I believe the black church is, the best place for black people. Mm-hmm. To be in community, to grow, to learn, to flourish, to figure out who they are, um, to evolve, to find foundation.
I believe the black church is great. I do understand why people appreciate integration, and I know this is not popular. But I appreciate Sunday segregation. Can I
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I tell you that? Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: And I know people are probably, Twitter fingers
are gonna be out
there telling me I’m a racist. No, I’m just saying. for black people, we need a place where we can go, where we don’t have to wonder if you understand us enough to not be afraid of us.
If you understand us enough to love us. Well, if you understand us enough to relate well enough that I don’t have to listen to a message that’s offensive. I tell people all the time, I have friends who go to multicultural churches and everything is good until a black man gets shot in the middle of the street or it’s election time,
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm. And
Brianna Parker: then that’s when they come back to the black church
And I’m like,
come one, come all.
We still love you.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I wanted to know more about what church means to her at an emotional heart level. As Brie recovered from the hurt and the pain of this experience,
she didn’t only take it as objective data, important as that is for her own personal life of faith. She needed to return to the comforting, safe space that church was for her in her youth. What does it feel like for you
Brianna Parker: mm-hmm.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: to spend Sunday morning in the black church? What
does that feel like in your body?
Brianna Parker: it feels like a heated blanket on a cold, rainy day. Hmm
It feels
like, um, a meal at Crustaceans after I hadn’t had it in four years.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: A meal at Crustacean. Your favorite
restaurant? Yes.
Brianna Parker: It feels like, um, going to bed for a church nap and waking up to the smell of, beef tips and rice and peach cobbler and poundcake and cod greens, macaroni and cheese and hot water cornbread.
it is familiar. It is safe. It is warm. It’s just, it’s everything
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: because what is that in contrast to what you have? Everyday outside of the black church.
Brianna Parker: Ooh, child. You just don’t know. Here’s the thing, Nikki,
I really
don’t know. When I walked my dog, I was walking my mom’s dog, right? And one of my neighbors, I live in a predominantly white neighborhood, one of my neighbors.
It was, you know, um, sunset.
Okay.
One of my white male, older neighbors said to me,
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: you
Brianna Parker: careful out here. It is dark.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm. I want you to get home safely. Mm-hmm. Child, I could cry right now. That is
Mm-hmm. I dunno if I get come home, if I walk my dog too late.
mm-hmm. You know, in your own neighborhood. In
Brianna Parker: own neighborhood where I pay good taxes.
Mm-hmm.
it’s, it’s a scary world out there.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: And so Sunday
morning is a warm, weighted blanket.
Brianna Parker: It is. Now, it’s not
Perfect. Uhhuh.
some places are better than others. To be clear,
none of them are perfect.
If people at church get on my nerves too, but I, I, I know there’s no malicious intent. I know I’m not gonna get killed unless an a foreigner, an outsider.
Mm-hmm. And I say foreigner, as in somebody who doesn’t belong to our community comes in and harms us. You know? Like,I know I’m safe, I know I’m, for the
majority
of the time is understood. You know, those things happen that, and they don’t happen anywhere else. I can’t tell you another place, I don’t know, a place where you can get what you get from the black church. I just don’t know that it exists.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: And so that’s why I appreciate Sunday segregation and I know it won’t make people feel good, but if you don’t like it, build a better world.
Create something that allows me to feel safe. I’m not even saying comfortable.
Lemme know that I get to make it home. I’ve been to white churches, I worked at white churches, especially when I lived in Pasadena. Mm-hmm. Um.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: but.
Brianna Parker: You know, you’re just waiting for the offense to come. And not that you want to, but it’s it’s gonna come, so what are you gonna say that’s gonna like totally offend me or maybe even piss me off, and
I’m never
gonna be able to come back here again.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: Or you know, there’s certain subjects
you either stay away from or you offend me when you, when you speak up,
and then sometimes to not say anything is offensive.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yeah.
Brianna Parker: There’s a documentary
and the pastor’s talking about how he handled race now when he’s talking about his own failures in his personal life, he is repentant when he talks about how he handled race when his members were coming to him, telling him there was a
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: problem. Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: He said he thinks he did all he could do.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh.
Brianna Parker: And I was like, what? In what world? In a couple weeks did you do all
that you could do? Wow.
You know, and so sometimes. You also don’t wanna
deal with the disappointment. of the person really not being who you think they should be as a believer
and a leader,
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: expectation Right.
Within the Christian community. It’s, you hope for more.
Brianna Parker: You do. Yeah.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Brianna’s ministry today has a profound impact on local congregations to find their true expression, both of their black identity and their Christian identity, but with an urgent new mission to improve its self understanding, its community relations and its outreach so that the black church might continue to offer that respite and love and safety and support that Brianna has known herself.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: You do a lot of work in the broader black
community mm-hmm.
As well as working with the black church. Mm-hmm. Is there something that you think the black church could learn from that’s sort of a commonplace thing or a best practice in the, in the broader black community,
Brianna Parker: yeah. The church should, uh, learn from the innovation and brilliance of black community. See, black church is slow to move. You know, I have this thing with, uh, black millennial cafe.
We,
we blaze trails. We don’t eat dust.
The black church eats dust. The black community blazes
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm.
Brianna Parker: you know, when you’re looking on the internet and whether it’s art or you know, whether it’s comedy or whether it’s, medical research or whatever it is, you know, black people are so incredibly brilliant,
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: and entrepreneurial Absolutely.
Brianna Parker: You know, Nikki, I’m still surprised that I get to preach all over the country
and
run BMC Hmm. Because in our world, you’re one or the other, are you gonna be a preacher? Mm. Are you gonna be a business owner? Mm-hmm. But you don’t usually get to do both. Mm-hmm.
And especially not as a woman. Mm-hmm. So the fact that I am still preaching around the country to this day, the fact that I’m still like taking on clients and like really having a successful company still blows my mind. Mm-hmm. I stop many days and just weepy, sometimes tearful and just say thank
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm. You
Brianna Parker: know? Mm-hmm.
But, and that’s because I get to take. Black brilliance.
Mm-hmm.
And black innovation into black churches. So really I take what I’m learning from the community or people from the community to transform what we’re seeing in churches. So I really wish the black church would take that from the community.
What do I wish the community would take from the black church?
Maybe? Yeah. what it means to build firm foundations for children. You know, we don’t have as many community centers and things like that anymore.
if the community could build that, you know what I mean? Like, and give people their start. Um, I mean, they used to have Debbie Allen School of Dance and things like that. We have
that a lot less in the community. And it’s not that we haven’t seen it before. I just wish they would adopt it again, that we’re making a commitment to teach children that we’re having Sonya Sloan, uh, Dr. Sonya Sloan. In Humboldt, Texas has a STEM camp. She’s a orthopedic surgeon. You don’t see many black women orthopedic
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: surgeons.
Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: And so she has a, a steam camp.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: mm-hmm. That she actually has
Brianna Parker: in arts. I think we need that. I, I think we need places in the community who are just as committed to, creating a foundation. As the church is,
you know, like, because
I got to
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: I remember I was singing in the choir.
My mother said, that’s not your gift. Come down.
you know, like, but I love hearing your voice. But, you know, she’s don’t do it. But you can show pre, you know what I mean? You’re a great orator. Yes. And you know, you just really get to figure it out. But you get to figure it out. And it doesn’t have to be on social media where people are laughing at you.
It doesn’t have to be in your class where people don’t have the same kind of community, um, you
know, where people
can’t laugh or they’ll get in trouble. You
know what I
mean? Like, or just a place that’sthat’s just filled with more love. Like,we’re going back to vacation. Vacation bible school at my home church.
Because
you know what it meant to be around to learn? Yes. With. Other kids who looked like you. Yes. And to have kids who are younger than you, that you wanted to nurture kids
who are older
than you, that you looked up to just for that week and have good food and good. You know, like singing like that was amazing.
I’m so sad I won’t be there to take my great nephew this year. He’s four. So I’m like, you’re gonna go bef you know when you’re five. But I have work I have to do. But I wanna take him there. I want him to know what it feels like to be surrounded by people who love you, wanna see you at your best, wanna make sure you grow, you know, will platform you, highlight you.
And if you fail, it’s
okay. Because you know the black church,
when you’re
doing anything on a platform
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm. and you messing
Brianna Parker: up, they just say, that’s right, baby.
You
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: know, they just sing for Jesus or
Brianna Parker: it’s all right. You know? Like you can’t even really mess up in the black church because they’re gonna make you feel so good.
Yes. You’re gonna be alright.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: I love that. I love that picture of church as this place that where folks are, are discovering what
it means to fully flourish in all dimension. Yeah. They’re
offering their gifts with boldness.
Absolutely.
And Grace, I thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that picture. It’s fantastic.
What
should the future of the black church look
like?
Brianna Parker: It should be a place that’s inclusive.
we’re far beyond tolerance. We need to stop that. And we need to get to a place of deep love.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Hmm.
Brianna Parker: that don’t ask, don’t tell policy is unhealthy.
Mm-hmm. And we know anyway.
I remember I was at a church and, they were like, you know, as long as we don’t know, as long as he stays in the closet, you know, we’re fine. I said, well, if the closet is here, it’s made of glass. We all know, you know what I mean? So, are we gonna not love him if he says this to us or we just gonna continue to love him?
Like, why does he have to be quiet in order to be loved? If we’re clear, we already know.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: And so I think the black church needs to become inclusive, celebratory, uh, deeply loving everyone. we’re gonna have to make some decisions about what we really believe and stop hoping that nobody ever calls us to the carpet on it.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Hmm.
Brianna Parker: we’re going to have to figure out what it means to help people to flourish again. Hmm. So we we’re really good at Children’s. So we learned, when we were looking at the data that children’s. Ministry children’s programming makes people, reflect on children’s ministry as the best time or happiest time in a black
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: church.
Oh, wow.
Brianna Parker: For parents and for children.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Is that right? Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: Because parents do, because they’ve developed a cohort of people Yes. Who all have children there. Yes. And children do because they have really intentional programming.
We need to do that for everyone. Um, I think life stage ministry in ways we haven’t seen it, and this is something that I still keep exploring, I think is the future of the church, because the worst thing you can do is think that you’re the only one going through something.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So kind of like young adults, young professionals, people in different stages of life or
different sectors. People
Brianna Parker: who are dealing with fertility. You know? Mm-hmm. Um, people are trying to be entrepreneurs. People who have divorced.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: People who are desperately wanting relationship that’s different than singles
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: ministry.
Yes. Yes. You know what I mean? That’s true. Um,
Brianna Parker: I think when we learn how to journey with people
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yes.In all their complexity and specifics all Yeah. because everybody has it. Yeah. Um, I think we’re gonna be in a great place. I’m sure we will. I, I, I, I still believe in the black church. I still have a lot of hope for the black church and you know why I have hope for the black church?
Brianna Parker: Because they let us in. Us as MB BMC Mm, that we get to come in and help them transform spaces that we get to come in with something very foreign like data and tell ’em, this is why we’re gonna make these changes. I’m still amazed that black men. Let me come in. They pay me money to tell ’em what to do. And because they pay me so much money, they do it.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: And the data is sort of saying, this is what the community is saying they want. This is what the community says that they believe.
Yeah. This is,
Brianna Parker: Sometimes now when we, when we research, we have to filter through the lies, right? So when, when we did State of the Black church study, one thing they said I think how many times you go to church?
And they, like
the majority of people said
two or four. It was stupid. It was such a lie.
I was just
like, this is a lie.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: That’s what they tell their mom. Yeah, but this is what, don’t forget
Brianna Parker: anonymously, they’re still saying this.
So
you know what that told me? This is how they wanna be seen. Mm-hmm.
This is who they want to be.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm. Let’s create the kind of love loving community. Let’s create the kind of programming that allows them to be who they want to
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brianna Parker: have to be a culture creature. So I have to do a whole lot of stuff. Some stuff I love to do, some stuff I don’t. I have to watch stuff that I’m not into that the rest of the world is into.
’cause you, you, you eat dust if you’re not on top of culture.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: What do you think the broader church can learn from the black church?
Brianna Parker: what it means to be the beloved
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm.
Brianna Parker: what it means to be a safe space? Well, I don’t know if the broader church can know what it means to be a safe space. ’cause I don’t think they need a safe space in the same way we do. But I think to just know that a safe space is needed, that means, you know, how ugly that world is for us.
but they could really learn, um, yeah, the beloved community, what it means to just know that you can start from birth, you know, and stay there until you’re. Gray
and, grow and thrive and excel. Now lemme say one thing. I think churches miss The church is the only place that for 60 years you can invest in
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Hmm.
Brianna Parker: and the best you can get back. Not from God. I know God is gonna bless us. Mm-hmm.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: Tangibly is maybe some, benevolent benevolence money.
Or really bad repass dinner when you die.
I
think churches, white churches do it more. Black churches don’t do it much at all. We are gonna have to learn what, what it, what economic development should look like in our communities.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Oh, interesting.
Brianna Parker: And we’re going to have to offer people more than benevolence. Once a year, you know, if they need it. And more than a really horrible repas dinner, we’re going to have to learn how to invest, in our community, to gather resources, to create real, community wealth. so that people are getting more
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: So that that whole community inside and, and nearby the church
absolutely is, is lifted up.
Brianna Parker: cause guess what? If I give 10% here for 60 years and I can look and say my child got piano lessons, my child learned, You know what I mean? How to code. My child got a scholarship. My child was able to learn, you know, ballet, the young adults, when my child was a young adult, she was able to get, uh, startup money or she was able to learn how to start a business and, you know, start a LLC or when my family was, without employment.
They had the systems there. So, you know, my, my son-in-law didn’t have to be unemployed more than six weeks because we had systems set up for that’s worth giving to. Yeah. Now I’m not saying don’t tithe, I’m not saying don’t do what, what honors God, but you know, it’s a different day.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: What an amazing picture. Of a church being there for the whole
life Yeah.
Of a family. Absolutely.
brie, can you say a bit more about black brilliance and what it is that you see?
Brianna Parker: Yeah. So
Black brilliance is like finding our way, when no one has made a way.
Black brilliance exposes things that everyone else has,ignored. Okay. Maybe disregarded.
Mm-hmm.
Black brilliance is when a black, you know, medical doctor decides to, enter research fields for a while and recognizes that maybe something like, High blood pressure, high cholesterol. Mm-hmm.
And like the markers that we look for and everyone else should be different for black
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: people
because of
Brianna Parker: of all the different like stressors or the way our body processes
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: something
differently. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: Something that nobody would care about if they were not a part of our
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: community.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um,
Brianna Parker: black brilliance looks like you have a young girl who goes
at the inauguration and does a poem that really knocks everyone off their feet.
It’s But it is unfamiliar to people once it’s exposed, in a, um, in a national, global
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: kind of way.
Yes.
Brianna Parker: Um, black brilliance is when we look at, There was just a story with a young boy. He was graduating as like valedictorian and I guess they have that now of middle school in
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: St.
Louis. Okay.
Brianna Parker: And he wanted to go to, his graduation. He wanted to be celebrated. He wanted to, wanted to have this moment. And so he walked two
hours
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: to
get to the celebration.
Brianna Parker: ’cause his grandfather’s car broke down.
He gets there
with holes in his
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: shoes.
Is that right?
Brianna Parker: He gets
there
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: sweaty.
The valedictorian,
but he gets there. Yes.
Brianna Parker: When he gets there. And I love, um, Dr. Collin Smith. I know her from St. Louis. She’s the president of, I think it’s Harris
au. She gets
there and sees Tenacity and Black
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: brilliance uhhuh and offers him a scholarship for
Brianna Parker: Because she can
recognize black brilliance as a black woman looking in the face of this black
boy. Yes. Who is fighting Yes.
And walking until he has holes in his shoes so that he can experience another level of black boy joy that you don’t get to get in other places. That’s recognized
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm. black woman. Black
Brianna Parker: brilliance is all,
all
over. I mean, let’s be clear.
I mean, I am
black and brilliant, but I wouldn’t wanna toot my own horn,
But I say I’m
black and brilliant because I looked at an area nobody else cared about.
Mm-hmm.
Nobody cared about research and data.
Mm-hmm.
You
know, data was an
option. Pre pandemic. Mm-hmm. Data is the Donata
post pandemic uhhuh. But it wasn’t hot when I started. Nobody cared. People thought I was gonna go broke.
People said, if you wanna really have something successful, you
gotta study everybody, not just black people.
But I was able to be grounded enough in who I
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: was.
Mm-hmm.
Brianna Parker: To say that I am going to bring something amazing to my community.
mm-hmm. Because we need it. Mm-hmm. And they will catch up to me. If they have to. But I’m still going
to give everything I think I’m called to do black brilliance is seeing something
that is necessary
to expose to the wider world.
To benefit your community. Mm It’s
not using your gifts in traditional
ways. But flipping everything on its head. Yeah. To bring the world something new. And we’ve seen it. I mean, what is the world without black inventions? But beyond that, we’re creating things like even in like psychology, we’re giving ourself a new
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Mm.
Brianna Parker: self care looks different when you talk to a black psychologist and they’re teaching us what it means to nap and how it heals our body. And yes, I mean it’s just, you have Tamer Bryant who is just brilliant and I mean, she exhibits black, black brilliance time and time again. Black
brilliance
when we can see it and appreciate it at leads to black joy.
Black people need more joy. Always. Black joy is more than just being happy. Mm-hmm.
Black joy looks like someone who, I don’t know if you remember on social media, you saw these pictures of like black men, frolicking.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Yes.
Brianna Parker: And it was
like, what are they
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: doing? Yes.
Brianna Parker: Black joy is when you can be a 200 something pound black man, maybe with locks in your hair and frolic,
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: because
Brianna Parker: because we don’t get
to frolic.
That’s right.
We have to work hard. We have to provide, we have to do all these things that the world says. Well, but we don’t always get to just revel in joy and do things that don’t look cool or normal or the standard. Yeah. And so I think those things are necessary in the black community.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: Thank you, Brie. That, that was fantastic. It’s, I could talk to you for hours.
Brianna Parker: It’s, I could talk to you. We’re gonna talk for hours. Remember
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: that’s right.
Brianna Parker: to this.
Nikki Toyama-Szeto: The black brilliance that Reverend Bree shines and embodies and helps other leaders and communities to shine is a beacon that guides the black church towards a joy. The kind of joy as the gospel spiritual says,
This joy that I have, the world don’t give it and the world can’t take it away.
The gift of this brilliance to the world outside the black church is a model for rethinking church, the spiritual power of innovation, creativity, and expression of authentic love is a promising model for rethinking and reforming the church today the sake of the family of God, that is itself the epitome of gospel brilliance that leads to gospel joy.
Credible witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative, produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion, and Evan Rosa. And I’m your host, Nikki Toyama-Szeto. Thanks to Fuller Seminary, Christians for Social Action and Brenda Salter McNeil for sharing her book title with our podcast.
Special thanks to all of our conversation partners in the Rethinking Church Initiative and Network, both public and private and above all, thank you for your own courageous listening and your own credible witness to the gospel. For more information, visit crediblewitness.us.